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Thread: X-Fi Midi Synth Reverb and Chorus Controller not working properly

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    53

    X-Fi Midi Synth Reverb and Chorus Controller not working properly

    I bought an X-Fi a couple of weeks ago, and I soon realized that midi effects controllers cc91 and cc93 (reverb and chorus) didn't work with the X-Fi hardware synths. I called CL Technical support about this and this is the response I got: "I have spoken with our testers who say that the CC91-Reverb and CC93-Chorus amounts are set in the SF2 file. That value is typically set to hit 20% at maximum CC data entry (127). To work around this, you will need to use NRPNs to set the amount to a greater level, or edit the SF2 content itself. Please let me know if this information helps." No, it doesn't help, reverb and chorus effects in midi files are set with midi controllers #91 and #93, this is true of virtually every midi file available on the internet, including commercial midi files. CL's testers are wrong. SF2 files have embedded minimum amounts of reverb and chorus for certain patches, midi song files customize the amounts of reverb and chorus with controller’s cc91 and cc93 to suit each particular song, and even changes it during the song. Adding NRPN's involves editing the midi file by calculating the MSB and LSB for each desired value and adding four controllers for every channel of every song every time you want a change in the effects. Controller cc91 and cc93 have control sliders or knobs in every major audio/midi multitrack program and these require no editing. A midi synth that ignores this loses much of its realism, and this just isn't acceptable for those of us who make serious use of midi song files. I have several thousand midi files and it would take months or even years to edit them all. This is a bug that may only affect a small percentage of X-Fi users, but for those it affects, it's a major bug. From the response I received from tech support, it appears that they aren't planning to do anything about it, so I thought I would publicize the issue here and see if I can't change their minds. I drove a 120 mile round trip and paid $140 for my X-Fi and I've had to pull it out of my computer and put my Audigy back in. I'm not a happy camper at this point, but if CL is going to fix the issue, I'm willing to wait for a while because I think the X-Fi is worth it.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    101

    Re: X-Fi Midi Synth Reverb and Chorus Controller not working properly

    If you are using the same general midi soundfont for all your midi files, it isn't too difficult to change it.
    This is how it's done with Vienna in soundfont 2.1 - I suspect soundfont 2.4 will be similar, but may be more complicated to deal with the higher number of send effects (4).

    1) Create a global zone in the melodic preset (if there isn't one already)
    2) Right click, choose modulator properties.
    3) Click "new" on the right hand side
    4) On the new line created, choose primary source as midi cc91
    5) Choose destination reverb send effect
    6) Set amount to maximum (2000 - for maximum effect obviously)
    7) Set reverbeffectsend (bottom right) amount to zero if it isn't already
    Repeat steps 3-7 for cc93 chorus.
    You can copy and paste the global zone to each melodic preset. That's pretty tedious if you have 127 presets but not that long.
    8) Save soundfont.
    You should here the chorus and reverb as normal (I hope because I don't have an X-fi, just a sblive! but the theory is correct because I'm using sf 2.1 and had the same problem).

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    53

    Re: X-Fi Midi Synth Reverb and Chorus Controller not working properly

    You misunderstand, I have no problem with Soundfonts, and in fact I spent three years creating my own custom Soundfont. You can add appropriate basic amounts of reverb and chorus to certain instruments when building the 'font, but you often need to add more for realism in most songs, or you may need to vary the amount on a given midi track during the song, and you can't do that by programming a Soundfont. There is a need to add appropriate levels of reverb and chorus to midi song files or to vary the levels during the song to add realism. The problem is with midi files' reverb and chorus level controllers cc91 and cc93, the X-Fi's midi synths don't respond to them, though every other Creative sound card since the AWE series' midi synths do. This was an oversight by the X-Fi's designers. Every midi file that has come out for years uses midi controllers cc91 and cc93 to set and change reverb and chorus levels both before the song starts and sometimes while it is playing, which adds depth and realism to the song. The X-Fi ignores these messages, and that is a major problem for those of us who use midi for music generation. You can edit the midi file and insert NRPN messages for each channel and each change, but this is complicated and time consuming, especially since the midi controller messages are usually already in the file. This is an especially serious problem for me, since I already have over a thousand original midi files and several thousand midi files I've purchased or downloaded. It would take all my spare time for months or even years to go through all of them and insert the necessary NRPN's, and the controller messages are already there in the form of midi controller’s cc91 and cc93.
    Since my primary use of the X-Fi is for music creation and I rely heavily on midi files, the X-Fi is pretty much useless to me until CL fixes this problem. I had to remove my X-Fi and put my old Audigy back in my computer just so I could keep working with my music. This is a bug that doesn't affect most X-Fi users, but it is a bug and it affects those of us who use midi in a major way.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    101

    Re: X-Fi Midi Synth Reverb and Chorus Controller not working properly

    You misunderstand my message.
    "You may need to vary the amount on a given midi track during the song, and you can't do that by programming a Soundfont." The soundfont has to be set up the way I described or the control messages won't work as in your case. What I showed you is how to set up cc91 and cc 93 in soundfont 2.1 and above. In soundfont 2.1 UNLIKE soundfont 2.0 (sblive!) there is something called ‘modulator properties which if they aren't set right disable the midi control of reverb and chorus. If you look at the section headed "Part II: Modulator Routings" on the page below, there is a detailed description of the modulation properties in soundfont 2.1.

  5. #5
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    Dec 2010
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    53

    Re: X-Fi Midi Synth Reverb and Chorus Controller not working properly

    Yeah, I know about all that, and I used the Vienna SF2.1 version to create and edit my custom Soundfont. I checked and I have everything already set up properly in my Soundfont, but the X-Fi still doesn't respond to cc91 and cc93 messages. My 'font works perfectly on my Audigy, which is also an SF2.1 device. I remember having similar problems with certain patches 'way back when I first upgraded to the Audigy, and I fixed them all back then. It's a good thing because my custom 'font has over 260 different instruments! Since I haven't seen anyone else complain about this, I suppose it's possible that I got a defective X-Fi. I contacted Harvey about it and I'll just wait until I hear back from him. The Soundfonts supplied with the X-Fi had the same issue.

  6. #6
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    Nov 2010
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    101

    Re: X-Fi Midi Synth Reverb and Chorus Controller not working properly

    Sorry, my mistake. I noticed you were using an Audigy as well. I doubt that your personal X-fi would have a problem like that. The reason I convinced myself I was right was that it’s hard to believe they screwed up like that. In fact it's no use to anyone planning to use the X-fi primarily for soundfonts because having to use Vienna to set the reverb level is such a complete pain it just isn't worth it. There is actually a review out there in which the reviewer says "For the life of me I couldn’t get the Aux1 effect (fixed to reverb) to work with the Elite Pro though it was fine with the Xtreme Music" so maybe there are a lot of bugs to be sorted out.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
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    774

    Re: X-Fi Midi Synth Reverb and Chorus Controller not working properly

    I think I have a work around. It seems the reverb and chorus are responding, it’s just so low it's nearly inaudible (especially chorus). Here is what i did to fix it. In creation mode turn the EAX to max, this should help with reverb. For chorus activate all five bus routing buttons. This should work if you’re using a stereo setup. You can also change the default preset to fit your taste. Use the FX return to adjust the levels as well. Let me know if this helps

  8. #8
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    Dec 2010
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    53

    Re: X-Fi Midi Synth Reverb and Chorus Controller not working properly

    Maxing everything was the first thing I tried and no go. Still so little reverb it was hard to tell if it was working, and no detectable chorus. I even went back with Vienna 2.4 and checked my soundfont again, and all was as it should be. Putting together a brand new sound card is a major undertaking and it's understandable if something gets missed here and there, especially as most of the designers and testers probably aren't serious musicians. It's easy to see how this one could slip past, especially if they were using Soundfonts that have reverb and chorus programmed in to some of the instruments. Everything works fine until you start varying cc91 and cc92 and nothing happens. I haven't checked because I removed the X-Fi and put my Audigy back in, but it's a good bet that none of the midi effect controllers work properly. This is a relatively minor issue for most users, but for serious musicians who use midi, it's major. However, I'm sure CL will fix the problem as soon as possible. I just hope it doesn't take too long because the X-Fi is a really, really good sounding card, except for this one problem.

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