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Thread: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

  1. #1
    w-cubed Guest

    Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in it.
    Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do Tape.

    I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases

    I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical
    replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at 120MB/s and
    stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need at
    least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.

    I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to
    source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong very
    wrong!

    I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and
    copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft have
    provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data from old
    2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.

    Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get NYBACKUP
    working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these servers.

    I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all Operating
    systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I do not
    consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do Disaster
    recovery with of site backup well or affordably

    Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.

    Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the
    system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!

  2. #2
    Paul Bergson [MVP-DS] Guest

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk and then
    you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our
    enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape then
    straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers. Disk to
    tape under conventional means is to slow for us.

    Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup business
    but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they licensed
    from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).
    http://technet2.microsoft.com/window....mspx?mfr=true

    So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that is
    running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.

    --
    Paul Bergson
    MVP - Directory Services
    MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci
    2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4

    http://www.pbbergs.com

    Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...
    > Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in it.
    > Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do Tape.
    >
    > I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases
    >
    > I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical
    > replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at 120MB/s
    > and
    > stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need at
    > least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.
    >
    > I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to
    > source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong very
    > wrong!
    >
    > I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and
    > copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft
    > have
    > provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data from
    > old
    > 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.
    >
    > Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get
    > NYBACKUP
    > working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these
    > servers.
    >
    > I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all Operating
    > systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I do
    > not
    > consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do
    > Disaster
    > recovery with of site backup well or affordably
    >
    > Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.
    >
    > Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the
    > system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!




  3. #3
    w-cubed Guest

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    This is ability was a clear posability from the begining and as with you I
    understood these options. However many of my customers are small sites
    single server many are Windoes server 2003 SBS looking to migrate to 2008.
    They just done have a huge server farm with huge disks to backup to. To add
    to this the process you suggest is actualy two steps and when you look at it
    the passing of 1TB of data across a network to an older 2003 machine then
    conduct a tape backup on it its going to take 24 hours. I have worked with
    cross network backups in the past and when we start talking Terra bytes we
    just lose the plot. To ad to this we are looking to replace the old server
    and the disk system in the old server would have to be upgraded to 1 TB. To
    get the disk speed to keep up with the 1 TB over night we need a reasonably
    fast RAID disk system. The backup system would also require a semilar fast
    disk system.

    These customers dont have SAN systems!!

    What we are loohing at is very simple -

    The customer places a type like device into a server and it backs up over
    night .

    They dont wanted complicated double backups to non existing servers

    Micro soft may have high end users such as your self in mind with what they
    have provided but the smaller customers such as my customers the Microsoft
    offering is just not practical at all

    I thank you for your input but it does not get the tape unit working with a
    microsoft backup utility. Infact the fact that you suggest that you backup
    to tape on a second server clearly indicates you would have the same issue
    and still require Tape backup.

    This in its self tells you that micro soft have a duty of care to maintain
    support for tape backup.

    I would pointn out that Microsoft are not in the RAD disk array market of
    server hardware market or even removable hard drive market. Yet what they
    deliver affects all of these markets and how we use them.

    So once again but Im throwing this one back in the pond and sit fishing for
    a fish that will do the job

    Tom

    "Paul Bergson [MVP-DS]" wrote:

    > This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk and then
    > you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our
    > enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape then
    > straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers. Disk to
    > tape under conventional means is to slow for us.
    >
    > Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup business
    > but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they licensed
    > from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).
    > http://technet2.microsoft.com/window....mspx?mfr=true
    >
    > So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that is
    > running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.
    >
    > --
    > Paul Bergson
    > MVP - Directory Services
    > MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci
    > 2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4
    >
    > http://www.pbbergs.com
    >
    > Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup
    > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    >
    > "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...
    > > Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in it.
    > > Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do Tape.
    > >
    > > I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases
    > >
    > > I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical
    > > replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at 120MB/s
    > > and
    > > stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need at
    > > least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.
    > >
    > > I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to
    > > source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong very
    > > wrong!
    > >
    > > I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and
    > > copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft
    > > have
    > > provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data from
    > > old
    > > 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.
    > >
    > > Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get
    > > NYBACKUP
    > > working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these
    > > servers.
    > >
    > > I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all Operating
    > > systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I do
    > > not
    > > consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do
    > > Disaster
    > > recovery with of site backup well or affordably
    > >
    > > Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.
    > >
    > > Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the
    > > system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!

    >
    >
    >


  4. #4
    Kerry Brown Guest

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much less
    expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost of
    each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.

    --
    Kerry Brown
    MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
    http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/



    "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:DB0145AD-AF5D-46F8-99A8-2B91ECD6AAA9@microsoft.com...
    > This is ability was a clear posability from the begining and as with you I
    > understood these options. However many of my customers are small sites
    > single server many are Windoes server 2003 SBS looking to migrate to 2008.
    > They just done have a huge server farm with huge disks to backup to. To
    > add
    > to this the process you suggest is actualy two steps and when you look at
    > it
    > the passing of 1TB of data across a network to an older 2003 machine then
    > conduct a tape backup on it its going to take 24 hours. I have worked
    > with
    > cross network backups in the past and when we start talking Terra bytes we
    > just lose the plot. To ad to this we are looking to replace the old
    > server
    > and the disk system in the old server would have to be upgraded to 1 TB.
    > To
    > get the disk speed to keep up with the 1 TB over night we need a
    > reasonably
    > fast RAID disk system. The backup system would also require a semilar
    > fast
    > disk system.
    >
    > These customers dont have SAN systems!!
    >
    > What we are loohing at is very simple -
    >
    > The customer places a type like device into a server and it backs up over
    > night .
    >
    > They dont wanted complicated double backups to non existing servers
    >
    > Micro soft may have high end users such as your self in mind with what
    > they
    > have provided but the smaller customers such as my customers the Microsoft
    > offering is just not practical at all
    >
    > I thank you for your input but it does not get the tape unit working with
    > a
    > microsoft backup utility. Infact the fact that you suggest that you
    > backup
    > to tape on a second server clearly indicates you would have the same issue
    > and still require Tape backup.
    >
    > This in its self tells you that micro soft have a duty of care to maintain
    > support for tape backup.
    >
    > I would pointn out that Microsoft are not in the RAD disk array market of
    > server hardware market or even removable hard drive market. Yet what they
    > deliver affects all of these markets and how we use them.
    >
    > So once again but Im throwing this one back in the pond and sit fishing
    > for
    > a fish that will do the job
    >
    > Tom
    >
    > "Paul Bergson [MVP-DS]" wrote:
    >
    >> This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk and
    >> then
    >> you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our
    >> enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape then
    >> straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers. Disk
    >> to
    >> tape under conventional means is to slow for us.
    >>
    >> Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup business
    >> but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they licensed
    >> from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).
    >> http://technet2.microsoft.com/window....mspx?mfr=true
    >>
    >> So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that is
    >> running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Paul Bergson
    >> MVP - Directory Services
    >> MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci
    >> 2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4
    >>
    >> http://www.pbbergs.com
    >>
    >> Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup
    >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
    >> rights.
    >>
    >> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    >> news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...
    >> > Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in
    >> > it.
    >> > Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do
    >> > Tape.
    >> >
    >> > I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases
    >> >
    >> > I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical
    >> > replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at
    >> > 120MB/s
    >> > and
    >> > stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need
    >> > at
    >> > least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.
    >> >
    >> > I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to
    >> > source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong
    >> > very
    >> > wrong!
    >> >
    >> > I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and
    >> > copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft
    >> > have
    >> > provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data
    >> > from
    >> > old
    >> > 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.
    >> >
    >> > Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get
    >> > NYBACKUP
    >> > working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these
    >> > servers.
    >> >
    >> > I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all
    >> > Operating
    >> > systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I
    >> > do
    >> > not
    >> > consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do
    >> > Disaster
    >> > recovery with of site backup well or affordably
    >> >
    >> > Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.
    >> >
    >> > Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the
    >> > system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!

    >>
    >>
    >>



  5. #5
    Anteaus Guest

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    Just to add my $0.1 here, I'd have to say that a a small-site admin I've been
    there, seen it, done it.. and in my opinion while NAS boxes and USB dongles
    are useful additional security, basically, TINSFOT.

    The issue with disk-based backups is that they are just as vulnerable to a
    faulty disk-controller or virus damaging their data as is the main copy. If
    you have a disk with nine rotational backups on it, what happens if the tenth
    time you use it, the disk-controller 'thrashes' and wipes the lot in one go?

    I do use a disk backup as well as tape (basically just xcopy done nightly)
    as it's easier to pull-back files that users have accidentally deleted from a
    second disk than futtering-around with tape restores. But, that's a
    convenience issue.

    Where tape scores, though, is that in the event of server trouble, last
    week's or last month's tape won't have been PUT IN the drive since the
    trouble started, so you can be reasonably sure it's OK. Plus, you can flip
    the write-protect while restoring, just in case.

    On the balance I think I'd have to agree with the OP that a server OS with
    no tape capability at all is not fit for the purpose it was sold for. IIRC
    even the old Novell systems had a limited tape capability out of box. Linux
    certainly does.

    Plus, a product like Backup Exec costs nearly as much as the server OS
    itself, and is mightily overcomplex for small sites, to the point where most
    onsite staff are afraid to touch it.

    "Kerry Brown" wrote:

    > In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much less
    > expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost of
    > each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.




  6. #6
    Kerry Brown Guest

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    I didn't say I prefer external drives over tape. I'm 50/50 on the issue. I
    do agree the tape option should have been included. I was just pointing out
    the cost justification of external drives vs. tapes. Given the cost of LTO4
    tapes it's not that much more expensive to use USB drives even to keep some
    as archives and take them out of rotation. This is just considering the cost
    of the media. Once you factor in the cost of an LTO4 tape drive the external
    hard drive solution is much cheaper.

    --
    Kerry Brown
    MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
    http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/



    "Anteaus" <Anteaus@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:AB8A43BA-3681-41E9-9DDB-3FF1D2AF4354@microsoft.com...
    > Just to add my $0.1 here, I'd have to say that a a small-site admin I've
    > been
    > there, seen it, done it.. and in my opinion while NAS boxes and USB
    > dongles
    > are useful additional security, basically, TINSFOT.
    >
    > The issue with disk-based backups is that they are just as vulnerable to a
    > faulty disk-controller or virus damaging their data as is the main copy.
    > If
    > you have a disk with nine rotational backups on it, what happens if the
    > tenth
    > time you use it, the disk-controller 'thrashes' and wipes the lot in one
    > go?
    >
    > I do use a disk backup as well as tape (basically just xcopy done nightly)
    > as it's easier to pull-back files that users have accidentally deleted
    > from a
    > second disk than futtering-around with tape restores. But, that's a
    > convenience issue.
    >
    > Where tape scores, though, is that in the event of server trouble, last
    > week's or last month's tape won't have been PUT IN the drive since the
    > trouble started, so you can be reasonably sure it's OK. Plus, you can flip
    > the write-protect while restoring, just in case.
    >
    > On the balance I think I'd have to agree with the OP that a server OS with
    > no tape capability at all is not fit for the purpose it was sold for. IIRC
    > even the old Novell systems had a limited tape capability out of box.
    > Linux
    > certainly does.
    >
    > Plus, a product like Backup Exec costs nearly as much as the server OS
    > itself, and is mightily overcomplex for small sites, to the point where
    > most
    > onsite staff are afraid to touch it.
    >
    > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
    >
    >> In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much
    >> less
    >> expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost
    >> of
    >> each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.

    >
    >



  7. #7
    w-cubed Guest

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    Kerry USB does not work with large data sets 1TB takes 3.5 days

    a LTO4 can do the same backup or restore in 2.5 hours

    Besides the tape is rugged light and transportable\

    Disks are not

    "Kerry Brown" wrote:

    > In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much less
    > expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost of
    > each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.
    >
    > --
    > Kerry Brown
    > MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
    > http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/
    >
    >
    >
    > "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > news:DB0145AD-AF5D-46F8-99A8-2B91ECD6AAA9@microsoft.com...
    > > This is ability was a clear posability from the begining and as with you I
    > > understood these options. However many of my customers are small sites
    > > single server many are Windoes server 2003 SBS looking to migrate to 2008.
    > > They just done have a huge server farm with huge disks to backup to. To
    > > add
    > > to this the process you suggest is actualy two steps and when you look at
    > > it
    > > the passing of 1TB of data across a network to an older 2003 machine then
    > > conduct a tape backup on it its going to take 24 hours. I have worked
    > > with
    > > cross network backups in the past and when we start talking Terra bytes we
    > > just lose the plot. To ad to this we are looking to replace the old
    > > server
    > > and the disk system in the old server would have to be upgraded to 1 TB.
    > > To
    > > get the disk speed to keep up with the 1 TB over night we need a
    > > reasonably
    > > fast RAID disk system. The backup system would also require a semilar
    > > fast
    > > disk system.
    > >
    > > These customers dont have SAN systems!!
    > >
    > > What we are loohing at is very simple -
    > >
    > > The customer places a type like device into a server and it backs up over
    > > night .
    > >
    > > They dont wanted complicated double backups to non existing servers
    > >
    > > Micro soft may have high end users such as your self in mind with what
    > > they
    > > have provided but the smaller customers such as my customers the Microsoft
    > > offering is just not practical at all
    > >
    > > I thank you for your input but it does not get the tape unit working with
    > > a
    > > microsoft backup utility. Infact the fact that you suggest that you
    > > backup
    > > to tape on a second server clearly indicates you would have the same issue
    > > and still require Tape backup.
    > >
    > > This in its self tells you that micro soft have a duty of care to maintain
    > > support for tape backup.
    > >
    > > I would pointn out that Microsoft are not in the RAD disk array market of
    > > server hardware market or even removable hard drive market. Yet what they
    > > deliver affects all of these markets and how we use them.
    > >
    > > So once again but Im throwing this one back in the pond and sit fishing
    > > for
    > > a fish that will do the job
    > >
    > > Tom
    > >
    > > "Paul Bergson [MVP-DS]" wrote:
    > >
    > >> This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk and
    > >> then
    > >> you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our
    > >> enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape then
    > >> straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers. Disk
    > >> to
    > >> tape under conventional means is to slow for us.
    > >>
    > >> Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup business
    > >> but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they licensed
    > >> from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).
    > >> http://technet2.microsoft.com/window....mspx?mfr=true
    > >>
    > >> So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that is
    > >> running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.
    > >>
    > >> --
    > >> Paul Bergson
    > >> MVP - Directory Services
    > >> MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci
    > >> 2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4
    > >>
    > >> http://www.pbbergs.com
    > >>
    > >> Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup
    > >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
    > >> rights.
    > >>
    > >> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > >> news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...
    > >> > Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit in
    > >> > it.
    > >> > Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do
    > >> > Tape.
    > >> >
    > >> > I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases
    > >> >
    > >> > I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical
    > >> > replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at
    > >> > 120MB/s
    > >> > and
    > >> > stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I need
    > >> > at
    > >> > least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in place.
    > >> >
    > >> > I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having to
    > >> > source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong
    > >> > very
    > >> > wrong!
    > >> >
    > >> > I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage and
    > >> > copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes Microsoft
    > >> > have
    > >> > provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data
    > >> > from
    > >> > old
    > >> > 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.
    > >> >
    > >> > Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get
    > >> > NYBACKUP
    > >> > working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup these
    > >> > servers.
    > >> >
    > >> > I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all
    > >> > Operating
    > >> > systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup. I
    > >> > do
    > >> > not
    > >> > consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do
    > >> > Disaster
    > >> > recovery with of site backup well or affordably
    > >> >
    > >> > Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.
    > >> >
    > >> > Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in the
    > >> > system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>

    >


  8. #8
    Anteaus Guest

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    This touches non a larger subject, namely that disk-storage technology is
    always one step ahead of backup systems. These days, a terabye of disk
    storage is easily achievable, yet tape devices are typically limted to a few
    100GB or so, and even at that, are extremely costly and not all that
    reliable. Not that anything has changed, in the days of 1GB disks typical
    tapes took 100MB.

    That, and we seem to be moving towards OS's that create bigger and bigger
    headaches for the devices or software that back them up. With Win9x the
    entire OS could be backed-up reliably with an XCOPY command. With succesive
    NT-based versions the capability to backup the OS with confidence has
    progressively diminished, owing to the introduction of features like NTFS,
    filesystem permissions, hardlinks, EFS, you name it. With Vista this even
    extends to modifying the disk's MBR region in a special way, so that EVEN if
    you have an exact, byte-perfect copy of a partition, there is no guarantee
    that this represents a full backup.

    I have to ask, is this a forward step, or a retrograde one? For most people,
    outright loss of their data is far more of a concern than are 'trick'
    features, or cloak-and-dagger security.


    "w-cubed" wrote:

    > Paul why should we double handle the backup
    >
    > One server one backup
    >
    > Complicated backup systems mean complicated restorations
    >
    > I dont think people should try to justify dumping tape its still a good
    > media abd still beats anything else on offer
    >



  9. #9
    Kerry Brown Guest

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    Then use eSATA. I'm not against tape backups. I use tape at many sites I
    support. In some cases it is the best option. It sounds like in your case it
    is the best option. Backing up a terabyte every night in a single server
    shop is a pretty unusual set up. I was just trying to point out there are
    options.

    --
    Kerry Brown
    MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
    http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/



    "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:2E601D5C-C56A-45F3-96C4-718D7A0752C0@microsoft.com...
    > Kerry USB does not work with large data sets 1TB takes 3.5 days
    >
    > a LTO4 can do the same backup or restore in 2.5 hours
    >
    > Besides the tape is rugged light and transportable\
    >
    > Disks are not
    >
    > "Kerry Brown" wrote:
    >
    >> In a small single server shop several USB drives in a rotation is much
    >> less
    >> expensive option than a tape drive that could backup a terabyte. The cost
    >> of
    >> each drive is around the same as the cost of a couple of tapes.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Kerry Brown
    >> MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
    >> http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    >> news:DB0145AD-AF5D-46F8-99A8-2B91ECD6AAA9@microsoft.com...
    >> > This is ability was a clear posability from the begining and as with
    >> > you I
    >> > understood these options. However many of my customers are small sites
    >> > single server many are Windoes server 2003 SBS looking to migrate to
    >> > 2008.
    >> > They just done have a huge server farm with huge disks to backup to.
    >> > To
    >> > add
    >> > to this the process you suggest is actualy two steps and when you look
    >> > at
    >> > it
    >> > the passing of 1TB of data across a network to an older 2003 machine
    >> > then
    >> > conduct a tape backup on it its going to take 24 hours. I have worked
    >> > with
    >> > cross network backups in the past and when we start talking Terra bytes
    >> > we
    >> > just lose the plot. To ad to this we are looking to replace the old
    >> > server
    >> > and the disk system in the old server would have to be upgraded to 1
    >> > TB.
    >> > To
    >> > get the disk speed to keep up with the 1 TB over night we need a
    >> > reasonably
    >> > fast RAID disk system. The backup system would also require a semilar
    >> > fast
    >> > disk system.
    >> >
    >> > These customers dont have SAN systems!!
    >> >
    >> > What we are loohing at is very simple -
    >> >
    >> > The customer places a type like device into a server and it backs up
    >> > over
    >> > night .
    >> >
    >> > They dont wanted complicated double backups to non existing servers
    >> >
    >> > Micro soft may have high end users such as your self in mind with what
    >> > they
    >> > have provided but the smaller customers such as my customers the
    >> > Microsoft
    >> > offering is just not practical at all
    >> >
    >> > I thank you for your input but it does not get the tape unit working
    >> > with
    >> > a
    >> > microsoft backup utility. Infact the fact that you suggest that you
    >> > backup
    >> > to tape on a second server clearly indicates you would have the same
    >> > issue
    >> > and still require Tape backup.
    >> >
    >> > This in its self tells you that micro soft have a duty of care to
    >> > maintain
    >> > support for tape backup.
    >> >
    >> > I would pointn out that Microsoft are not in the RAD disk array market
    >> > of
    >> > server hardware market or even removable hard drive market. Yet what
    >> > they
    >> > deliver affects all of these markets and how we use them.
    >> >
    >> > So once again but Im throwing this one back in the pond and sit fishing
    >> > for
    >> > a fish that will do the job
    >> >
    >> > Tom
    >> >
    >> > "Paul Bergson [MVP-DS]" wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> This has been well advertised by Microsoft. You can backup to disk
    >> >> and
    >> >> then
    >> >> you run a third party app to copy the disk backup to tape. In our
    >> >> enterprise we do way more disk to disk backup and then dump to tape
    >> >> then
    >> >> straight to disk and we aren't running any production 2008 servers.
    >> >> Disk
    >> >> to
    >> >> tape under conventional means is to slow for us.
    >> >>
    >> >> Microsoft has said for many years, we are not in the tape backup
    >> >> business
    >> >> but they provide a very slimmed down product that I believe they
    >> >> licensed
    >> >> from Veritas (I am not 100% positive but pretty sure).
    >> >> http://technet2.microsoft.com/window....mspx?mfr=true
    >> >>
    >> >> So if you have to use ntbackup then dump your backup to a machine that
    >> >> is
    >> >> running Windows 2000/2003 and have that machine run ntbackup.
    >> >>
    >> >> --
    >> >> Paul Bergson
    >> >> MVP - Directory Services
    >> >> MCT, MCSE, MCSA, Security+, BS CSci
    >> >> 2008, 2003, 2000 (Early Achiever), NT4
    >> >>
    >> >> http://www.pbbergs.com
    >> >>
    >> >> Please no e-mails, any questions should be posted in the NewsGroup
    >> >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
    >> >> rights.
    >> >>
    >> >> "w-cubed" <wcubed@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    >> >> news:5E68102D-EE3A-42B1-8E1A-E6E7F7241C4F@microsoft.com...
    >> >> > Yes what a shock I sold a new Windpows Server 2008 with a tape unit
    >> >> > in
    >> >> > it.
    >> >> > Only to find no NTBACKUP and the new Backup product just does not do
    >> >> > Tape.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > I have not been seeing this huge change in any press releases
    >> >> >
    >> >> > I have hunted around and I cannot find an affordable or practical
    >> >> > replacement for the LTO4 tape backup unit. What else streams at
    >> >> > 120MB/s
    >> >> > and
    >> >> > stores 1.6TB of data? It needs to be at under $200 a unit and I
    >> >> > need
    >> >> > at
    >> >> > least 30 backup devices to support the backup program policy in
    >> >> > place.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > I am for the first time in 28 years in the computer industry having
    >> >> > to
    >> >> > source a third party backup tool to backup a server. This is wrong
    >> >> > very
    >> >> > wrong!
    >> >> >
    >> >> > I have looked at the advice of many and switched on Remote Storage
    >> >> > and
    >> >> > copied teh old NTBACKUP but still cannot backup to tape. Yes
    >> >> > Microsoft
    >> >> > have
    >> >> > provided a cut down version of NTBACKUP to allow you to restor data
    >> >> > from
    >> >> > old
    >> >> > 2000 and 2003 server backups but it is read only.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Can any one resolve this issue for me - Either tell me how to get
    >> >> > NYBACKUP
    >> >> > working or provide another tool from microsoft that will backup
    >> >> > these
    >> >> > servers.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > I am not keen to use third party products and believe that all
    >> >> > Operating
    >> >> > systems should come with a basic and practical facility to backup.
    >> >> > I
    >> >> > do
    >> >> > not
    >> >> > consider the new backup practical as it is to costly and does not do
    >> >> > Disaster
    >> >> > recovery with of site backup well or affordably
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Who else is shocked and confused by the move by Microsoft.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Microsoft could of atleast delivered the old and the new backups in
    >> >> > the
    >> >> > system and allowed users to decide what the wanted to use!!!
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >>

    >>



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    I was faced with the same situation. I was unaware that tape based back-up would not be supported in MS Server 2008R2. I use a third party solution called "Backup Assist" and configure to backup with the ZIP feature. Works well for unattended backups, allows full archive tape rotation and retains my several hundred dollar tape drive/tapes investment (Ultrium). I also do a bare metal backup to a secondary hard drive in the case of total drive array failure.
    Not a perfect solution, but with a single server it is the best I can come up with at this time.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    1,259

    Re: Windows server 2008 - What theres no tape backup!

    Quote Originally Posted by lsells View Post
    I was faced with the same situation. I was unaware that tape based back-up would not be supported in MS Server 2008R2. I use a third party solution called "Backup Assist" and configure to backup with the ZIP feature. Works well for unattended backups, allows full archive tape rotation and retains my several hundred dollar tape drive/tapes investment (Ultrium). I also do a bare metal backup to a secondary hard drive in the case of total drive array failure.
    Not a perfect solution, but with a single server it is the best I can come up with at this time.
    First of well come to the forum and thanks at the same time for sharing the useful thought of yours there. Of course it is not the perfect solution but any work around to the issue is always welcomed. In addition to this I would just like you to see for one more thread and I think that it can really help with the issues that have been targeted here. Just have a look at this link: Tape back-up software for SBS 2008 and see if you find anything from it.

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